candle without wind
Originally uploaded by topher76
Anatman (Pali anatta: “no self”)
This is a Theraveda Buddhist theory stipulating the non-existence of the soul.
Aspects of anatman theory resemble but also differ from the idea of reincarnation.
In anatman theory, the temporary seat of consciousness is said to be exterminated like a candle flame at death, to be re-lit as a new candle at each succeeding birth.
Personality characteristics (skandhas) may reappear from one life to another life as a result of dependent origination. But the reappearance from one life to another is said to be discontinuous.
This opposes the Hindu view of reincarnation in which one soul (atman) repeatedly reincarnates, apparently slipping in and out of numerous bodies, until it achieves full identity with ultimate consciousness (brahman).
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thanks for using my photo !
Comment by topher — April 13, 2008 @ 11:47 am |
Subtle and difficult, but how then are the Skandhas different from soul?
Soul is thought to be the animating force (?) that makes us think we are… The Skandhas are the aggregates that make us think we are…
As I understand it, consciousness doesn’t continue, but the habit energy, or karma does. If the Skandhas make self, and if as you say, the Skandas incarnate, then really what is the difference? is it just another discriminatory label?
Or does Form necessarily become another like form? and so on…
Comment by dougrogers — April 13, 2008 @ 5:13 pm |
Thanks for an interesting question. The way I understand it, for this school of Buddhism the skandhas form a temporary construct known as the personality, which is an illusion to be dispensed with. Another more fundamental illusion is the notion of an eternal individual self, existing somehow behind the personality.
This link might help:
http://earthpages.wordpress.com/2007/08/12/skandhas/
Along with this one:
http://epages.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/letter-to-god-e-raymond-rock-and-dr-michael-clark-on-interfaith-unity/
Comment by Earthpages.ca — April 13, 2008 @ 6:47 pm |
The skandhas are not carried over. There isn’t a direct continuity between incarnations, so much as similar skandhas are formed again in the ‘medium’ or ‘mold’ of conditions.
In this sense, the candle dictates the form of the flame. Light a match. Light a candle. Blow out the match. Light a match from the candle. Blow out the candle. Light another candle from the match. Is it the same flame? You could light any number of candles from the candle, light any number of matches from the match, light any number of matches from the candle, light any number of candles from the match… is it the same flame?
It is conditioned by the form to express in the same way, but it isn’t the same flame.
That the skandhas form the illusion of self is agreed. That the skandhas carry over to the next life is disputed here.
Attachment is reborn. The stated idea that, “All personality characteristics (skandhas) are carried over from previous lives to the next life…” is a symptom of attachment to the idea that there is something that doesn’t extinguish.
Subtle and difficult.
Comment by dougrogers — April 14, 2008 @ 8:46 am |
Thanks for your interest in this topic. Before I make any edits I’d like to ask what, in your view, constitutes this “‘medium’ or ‘mold’ of conditions.”
Comment by Earthpages.ca — April 14, 2008 @ 2:44 pm |
http://www.arrowriver.ca/dhamma/deporig.html
Dependent Origination. This ‘medium’, or ‘mold’ is Dependent Origination. Everything depends on everything else.
That, is as I understand it, Buddha’s answer.
My own understanding is more along the lines of the Anthropic Principle. After that it’s turtles all the way down. Sentience is just something the Universe does.
Comment by dougrogers — April 14, 2008 @ 7:35 pm |
We’re getting into interesting stuff. If you have the time and interest could you please look at this paragraph and comment on it. Specifically I’m wondering if Broad, as I present him, indeed retells the notion of skandhas or if perhaps I’m taking a bit too much liberty here.
“The philosopher C. D. Broad’s idea of the psychic factor offers another explanation for the alleged experience of past lives. Essentially a Western retelling of the Buddhist idea of skandhas,(4) Broad believed that at death certain mental aspects, if not the total personality, exist for a time or dissipate into nothingness. If sufficiently clustered these hopes, fears, dispositions, desires and memories could attach themselves to another person while in a trance state. Broad believed the psychic factor could also associate with an embryo, having a vital influence on human personality development.(5)”
Source: http://web.ncf.ca/dy656/earthpages/reincarnation.html
—
Note: On the basis of your comments and subsequent research I changed the sentences in question to:
“Personality characteristics (skandhas) may reappear from one life to another life as a result of dependent origination. But the reappearance from one life to another is said to be discontinuous.”
from the former
“All personality characteristics (skandhas) are carried over from previous lives to the next life as a result of karma. But the jump from one life to the other is discontinuous.”
I also edited the entry on skandhas.
Thanks!
Comment by Earthpages.ca — April 14, 2008 @ 9:37 pm |
“Personality characteristics (skandhas) may reappear from one life to another life as a result of dependent origination. But the reappearance from one life to another is said to be discontinuous.”
‘Karma’ was not wrong, as consciousness – as some say, as my teacher insists
goes with karma
I think a problem you’re having here is that you seem to want to link incarnation to the Skandhas. The expressed result of the skandhas – as personality, if you will – is formed by Dependant Origination.
Karma is a chain of causes, your actions and deeds, the record of your actions and deeds and thoughts and speech which have effects. What incarnates is this habit energy. You can see this in a purely material way, or something more mystical. I lean to the more material (despite certain experiences
)
Feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness depend on form. Without form the next four do not have a ground to ‘exist’. Without the four elements – some say five – form has no existence.
As this continuity – Karma – Dependant Origination -does not end or begin at any particular point it seems reasonable to extrapolate that consciousness has some continuity or link beyond the material.
Some streams view this idea as essential. Some streams do not.
As to Form, when we die, the body returns to the elements. Is that reincarnation? Nope. Just proof we were never separate from the world to begin with. When form is gone, the skandhas are gone, where does the consciousness go? It’s gone. Sunyata. Emptiness, Anatman. But as with the matches and candles what is it that continues?
Karma. Craving. Your habits and expression. And these are continuous.
Now it is true that some streams of Buddhism propose that a strongly willed consciousness can direct this rebirth. This is where the C.D. Broad bit is very similar. This driven consciousness, it is proposed, driven by karma seeks a ‘rebirth’. Some are driven or guided into various realms. Powerful and clear consciousnesses can overcome distractions in the Bardo and choose the rebirth. Most ordinary consciousnesses follow their attachments. This also can lead to some of the various realms. Sometimes it can be a new human rebirth.
The Desire to Save All Beings is a powerful attachment. It is not the 13th Dalai Lama who was incarnated as the 14th, but Compassionate Wisdom which has embodied again and again.
My teacher wouldn’t disagree with this essential part of the statement;
“at death certain mental aspects, … exist for a time … If sufficiently clustered these hopes, fears, dispositions, desires and memories could attach themselves to another person … the psychic factor could also associate with an embryo, …”
Much of what Buddha taught can be cast in more modern and scientific language. Sometimes this is just pretend or pseudo-science, or a clinging to a belief in something eternal.
Sunyata. Emptiness, Anatman. Just as it is empty of any fixed thing that continues, it is entirely full of everything else. Just get out of the way.
An alternate, and still Buddhist view, is that we incarnate, attach, are reborn in every instant.
Comment by dougrogers — April 15, 2008 @ 1:33 pm |
Thanks for presenting such a variety of views. The reason I mentioned my article with E. Raymond Rock is because I’ve had certain experiences which for me affirm an essential individual self (not the conceptual or personality aspects of the self). So this is why I am fascinated by this topic but also reluctant to fully accept self as mere illusion. For me there is an individual self. But it’s very fundamental. Not fundamentalist!
Now you could say this is all just an illusion on the way to ridding oneself of all illusion. But by the same token, I could say that you’re perhaps fascinated with an intricate, intriguing system that might not completely do justice to the greatness of God and God’s creation.
At which point you could start conceptually deconstructing the ‘God’ word…
And I could reply that you’re using the intellect to do so, but that’s a lesser kind of analysis than piecing together the greater logic of God’s ways (dimly and usually after-the-fact perceived by my human intellect).
For me, I find aspects of truth in the dialogue, and in others like this.
I hope this makes sense. Thanks for all your careful input and, so I believe, kind intentions.
Comment by Earthpages.ca — April 15, 2008 @ 3:14 pm |
No matter how it is, does it solve the problem of Dukkha?
Comment by dougrogers — April 15, 2008 @ 4:05 pm |
Well, the way I see it, suffering can have a positive value but the focus shifts from this world to the next. Not that we should play martyr or be neurotically attached to negativity. The serenity prayer comes pretty close to my perspective on this:
http://www.cptryon.org/prayer/special/serenity.html
Comment by Earthpages.ca — April 15, 2008 @ 4:34 pm |
Some Buddhist streams also put it off till the ‘next life’. Pure Land, in one version practices that the lay person cannot dedicate the time this time around to achieving Nirvana, but maybe an advanced standing to get it next time around. Another interpretation for Pure Land is that the Pure land is a state of mind you can generate now.
Attachment isn’t necessarily the difficulty, depends on what the attachment is toward, and how it is expressed. Desire to save all Sentient Beings, or Desire to Enlightenment aren’t bad attachments. Does the practice, the doing, the affecting other persons, does that create more or less suffering? less is better, don’t you think?
Comment by dougrogers — April 15, 2008 @ 7:26 pm |
I think most people are trying to do the ‘right thing,’ as it were. It’s just how we interpret the ‘right thing’ that sometimes brings us into discord.
I like this notion of the ‘anthropic’ that you mentioned. I had to check that out and still just have the slightest idea. But it seems that, in good old fashioned terms, it’s about humility, recognizing limitations, etc.
Myself, I’ve been through so many different paths – or seemingly so – when really they’ve all been just one path. Mine! And I very strongly believe that there are as many different paths as there are individuals.
Sometimes those who brazenly proclaim to belong to a certain religion or organization upon closer inspection hold secret, unorthodox beliefs that they don’t tell others in their immediate religious or spiritual peer group. I won’t betray any confidences, of course, but I have pretty good reason to say this.
Anyhow, as you can see, I’m answering your queries in increasingly roundabout ways. A familiar strategy of mine to avoid conflict and save energy!
I guess I’d just sum up by saying that I believe we really do each have to find our own way, and keep our eyes open for any changes as we grow (or go, if you prefer).
Comment by Earthpages.ca — April 15, 2008 @ 9:31 pm |